TAdviser interview: Head of the Ministry of Digital Affairs Maksut Shadayev - on new approaches to digitalization of the state

Maksut Shadayev: The answer to this question is both simple and complex at the same time.

Our mission is the availability of modern digital services for everyone. At the same time, the concept of digital services is very wide: it includes the availability of the Internet, and public services, and social networks.

As a priority, the state, of course, should begin to change state services, moreover, not only public services, as well as services in the field of education, health, etc. All these services should work on affordable, cheap and modern infrastructure.

As part of these services, it is necessary to ensure the maximum presence of Russian IT solutions, which requires extensive involvement of domestic players. We must give them an advantage in order to simultaneously develop our own IT industry.

If you imagine that digital services are the building that we are building, then the IT industry will be the foundation for it. Now the foundation is very sticky. We can be blocked from using some technology at any time, and all our building, all the structure that we are building, can sail. Therefore, the more Russian at the base, the more stable the design, because, of course, we must understand - we live in conditions of unpredictable economic sanctions. We sit and think: they will block - they will not block.

Maksut Shadaev: You can say so. At first, the sanctions concerned only the defense industry. But the rubicon, in my understanding, was passed when Microsoft refused to renew the licenses of MSTU named after Bauman on the pretext that they were training specialists for the defense sector. And then what? Russian Railways, airlines, metro transport employees of the Ministry of Defense to work, doctors treat them...

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, the line has become blurred. Of course, we want modern solutions, including foreign ones, to be presented to us. We do not take the "only ours" position, realizing that competition is the engine of progress. But we also want our manufacturers to develop. Therefore, we are for maximum diversity, but at the same time, of course, we will focus on supporting our developers.

Maksut Shadaev: Different times are different priorities. What has changed dramatically is that the current Prime Minister understands not just the value and importance of IT, but what time frame and what decisions can be launched. And he sets tasks with serious time constraints. Relatively speaking, launch some kind of service in a month. Based on his experience, he understands how to build a technological cycle, how much it can really take time and resources. As an effective leader who built digital services with his own hands, he understands that with a certain mobilization this can be done faster.

Maksut Shadayev: We try to balance all the time to ensure the timing and the necessary level of quality. I believe that the number of shortcomings, taking into account the timing of the withdrawal of services, is acceptable to our users. Our ambition is to do more, faster, better. We understand that the current situation has become a certain new challenge and accelerated the digitalization processes. So we're trying to take this chance. Sometimes there are failures, of course.

Maksut Shadaev: I hope phenomenal managed to avoid. If we talk about the most difficult case - this is May 2020, when there were the first payments of ten thousand rubles per child.

Maksut Shadaev: He did not fall, he worked, but with significant failures. It cannot be said that it was completely inaccessible, certain difficulties with access were observed on the first day. And, in principle, during my work it was still the most difficult and serious situation.

The second payment for children in the summer of 2021 was without difficulty. The service was brought out in proactive mode, i.e. people came with pre-filled applications, which only had to be confirmed.

Another important point: banks gave additional bonuses to those customers who indicated their accounts for transferring payments. VTB and Alfa Bank paid a thousand rubles plus ten thousand per child if you put an Alpha account. Rosbank is one and a half thousand. "Sber" gave two thousand per family in the form of points in its loyalty system.

Maksut Shadayev: They rebuild their production process, change the technologies of service output, build the system based on the principle that it should be a designer that allows you to configure the service very quickly. In addition, you need to immediately prepare for super loads, because often about 60% of calls to the service fall on the first day. This requires a change in the technology stack, a change in the development philosophy, a mass transition to a low code solution.

It's like trying to replace an engine on a plane that keeps flying. We can't say, let's wait a year for us to build a new plane. So the bulkhead of parts, optimization, replacement of the engine - everything happens on the go. Sometimes this leads to some kind of difficulties. But there is no other way.

Maksut Shadaev: Of course, no. The value of the public services portal, indeed, is growing, the application has already entered the category of everyday use, for some time even taking first place among free applications in both Google Play and the App Store. Super-required also include a doctor's record service. The list of information that is available to a citizen about himself is expanding. Thanks to this, for example, it became possible to issue applications on the websites of banks for obtaining financial services using information uploaded with the consent of the user from the personal office of the public services portal. The user on the bank's website is simply authorized on public services and the application is automatically completed with data from his profile.

Maksut Shadaev: Millions took advantage. The data is automatically entered into the form, and, most importantly, that these data come to the bank with the electronic signature of the department.

Now for us, the most important question in this area is whether we can convince colleagues that part of the personal storage documents can be completely translated into electronic format. A certain habit is developed. Yes, in a very discomfort situation, but still. And if today you can present a QR code with confirmation of vaccination, then why tomorrow you cannot present a certificate of registration of a car? Or an electronic proof of age when buying alcohol in the store. Cases can be different. The Ministry of Internal Affairs, including the traffic police, are actively included in the process and participate in the launch of services. In general, I would like to emphasize the interest of the leadership of this department in new digital services that can significantly facilitate the life of our citizens. For which they are greatly grateful.

It is important that we do not want to become a megahab for data aggregation, we do not want to create one vulnerability point when data will lie in our personal accounts for all our users. Therefore, we are switching to the technology of online data storefronts. For example, the Ministry of Internal Affairs has its own large IT system, the showcase of which, built into SMEV, as quickly as possible - online - gives data to a personal account at the State Services. As the user of the banking application on the online instantly sees the balance on the card, data from state information systems and databases should also be automatically displayed. When the user goes to the appropriate tabs, the data is uploaded online. Data is not automatically saved after the session is terminated.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes. This showcase is at the department.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, the online showcase is one of the main entities of the NSUD, it allows you to switch to online interaction. This approach, by the way, is very good for medical data. Now we keep the PCR (facts about the sick) at home. But we strive to change the model and not collect this data.

Maksut Shadaev: Just for this reason, the president announced the postponement of payments to children for two weeks - they were supposed to be on August 16, and they did from August 2. Because the system works automatically. If we have digitized interdepartmental exchange as part of the provision of public services, then no official is required. After all, what is the payment for families with children aged 3 to 7 years who fall under the definition of need? We confirm income, property, everything is checked by the machine and a decision is made.

There are some things - court decisions, alimony - that have not yet been completely translated into electronic form. But their digitization is a matter of time. The provision of services around these situations will also occur automatically.

I note that for many typical regional and municipal services, we, as the Ministry of Finance, do not only the front office part on the public services portal, but also the back office. Because in the regions, not everyone has good information systems that support a similar model of quick interaction. They either need to upgrade their systems, or connect to our cloud solution, in which everything is configured.

The work of the system looks like this: at the moment when an application from a citizen is accepted on the portal, interdepartmental requests are launched. When a statement falls to an official, he sees just a check list with red and green fields, as well as the "Make a Decision" button. While there are difficulties in receiving interdepartmental answers, therefore, the official must check. But globally soon, such decisions can probably be made automatically.

Maksut Shadaev: In my understanding, technology is already there. In order to go completely to this model, you need to have "clean data" in online access on the side of departments. It is necessary that they be centralized, harmonized, accessible.

Consider this example: A child was born. The medical institution issues a certificate in electronic form, parents on the portal of State Services enter the name of the child, then the registry office automatically registers the fact of the birth of a new citizen and transmits data for the registration of the capital. FIU in proactive mode issues a certificate for matkapital.

Maksut Shadayev: I would say that technology simplifies their work. What is now frustrating the employees of the departments that are engaged in services? It is frustrating that only part of the requests go through the interagency interaction system, and individual requests have to be processed manually.

Maksut Shadaev: 100%. I believe this is our main KPI.

As an example of the reduction in functions due to digitalization, I will cite the Federal Treasury. The agency has created a state-of-the-art electronic payment system. Part of the employees thanks to this was released. And they were transferred to accounting in federal departments, which, in turn, allowed to reduce a large number of departmental accounting services and redirect their employees to other meaningful tasks.

The largest, mainly processing departments will be reduced. The services they provide are an absolutely formalized process.

Maksut Shadaev: Of course, it's hard for them. The Ministry of Digital Affairs is responsible for the frontal part of the services, but internal processes are still the responsibility of the departments, and without them we cannot do anything. To influence their results, we tied the budgets allocated to departments for digitalization to understandable, transparent effects.

Maksut Shadaev: I can't say that he could not cope with KPI, but it is clear that for the Ministry of Sports the key effect is an online entry in any sports sections. Let's say I want to enroll a kid in a basketball school. Do you understand what this process looks like now? I do not understand.

Most likely, first you need to find information and understand the conditions for what services are paid, what are free, and this is a whole story.

The most important thing for us from the point of view of the service is the opportunity to sign up online. Next - to see the schedule of classes, the results of competitions, including children's, youth, city, any others.

Another example is the Federal Bailiff Service (FSSP). Our citizens are not aware that enforcement proceedings have been instituted against them. They learn about this in some exceptional cases, for example, when traveling abroad.

Maksut Shadaev: And there is no history, it is very difficult to understand the whole chain, when, what and why happened.

We say to colleagues from the FSSP: your task, using all your and our infrastructure, is to make sure that at the time of initiating executive production and at all stages of its implementation, a person is informed. During the year, the FSSP was able to provide online notification to users of State Services about the start and progress of enforcement proceedings against them.

And the second - so that a citizen can quickly pay his debt, for example, right before departure. The KPI for debt relief is 10 minutes.

Another KPI involves an appeal. A person should have the opportunity to electronically disagree with the decision.

In the work of bailiffs - a million nuances. For example, the story we explore with them is the non-payment of alimony to ex-spouses. Seeking child support from her ex-husband is a giant problem, and not only for mothers. Often this is labor-intensive and difficult for the bailiffs themselves.

Maksut Shadayev: We tightly link the performance of the head of digital transformation with the solution of such acute mass problems.

And this is just the difference from how IT workers worked before.

Classic aitishniki - techies, they will be told - they will do. As the authorities want, they will implement. There used to be such a symbiosis: a functional leader says how to do it, and the IT center must ensure the implementation of its requirements. Aitishniki were mainly concentrated on infrastructure: for the Internet, computers to work.

We still put pressure on departments, urging them to engage in transformation. The official is somehow focused on performing current functions, and standard discussions with him sound like this:
- I work here for several years and always did so. What do you want?
And we say:
- Let's think how to change the process.

We act as people who exacerbate existing problems and help formulate tasks, how to make the process of obtaining a service more convenient and easy for our citizens.

Bailiffs, for example, agree that there should be the possibility of prompt debt relief, but they need to work on this issue together with border guards.

We support that it is necessary to involve border guards in the work, to solve the issue together with them.

Therefore, our role is, on the one hand, to escalate this situation, bring it to the surface, and on the other, to help departments formulate an ambitious task. Sometimes this is a purely psychological story, the official may simply not see the opportunity to act differently.

Or, here, another example. It seems to everyone that in the modern world, voting on the management of their apartment building should be electronic. Poll 500 people, everyone will say, well, of course, it is more convenient to vote online. Why isn't it done? Because people aren't up to it. Housing and communal services are focused on their current tasks - to prepare infrastructure for winter, to provide clean water. They have their own production plans.

It often happens that a collective mass user does not have a representative. Our task is to describe such situations.

And we say to the department responsible for housing and communal services: "Everything is clear, you are super effective guys, but can you give a schedule for turning off hot water to users of the public services portal?"

Maksut Shadaev: The question is transferred back to the Ministry of Construction, this is their production system. If we already inform users where their precinct commission is, who are the candidates, and then give the results of the vote, well, the schedule for turning off hot water in a particular house is probably not too difficult?

Of course, any changes are discomfort. I always said that the formula for the work of our ministry is very simple - if the department does not want to change, does not want to do services, it will be difficult to live with us. We will use our micro-administrative resource every time... It is certainly not big, but we know how to be persistent.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes! But if officials want to change, we will look for resources, we will help remove interdepartmental disagreements, we will knock out government instructions together, provide support. Therefore, either we are partners and help, or we openly talk about the fact that nothing is being done.

Maksut Shadaev: There are literally no enemies, there are disorders.

Maksut Shadaev: We broadcast them to hear.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, and at some point he will accurately show the contribution of each leader. Now the rating is being adjusted in terms of rating parameters, weights.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, some conclusions are made, but we are trying to act very carefully to make departments our partners. You can always start some kind of escalation, and sometimes we start it forced. But basically we try to help.

Maksut Shadaev: Previously, this mechanism acted like this. The agency sent us an informatization plan, which indicated what it wanted to do. This was followed by a dialogue:
-How much is it?
- One hundred rubles.
- Well, it seems, yes, servers, labor, everything seems justified. It seems that it costs 100 rubles.

We introduced know-how and now the first question we ask is not how much it costs, but what does it give? What changes if we spend the money?

We have 4 indicators characterizing the changes.

The first is that the department will reduce costs, free up resources, increase the productivity of officials, and reduce costs.

The second is that the department will increase revenues and revenues to the budget. A good example is the introduction of the status of self-employed, who began to register in the application and pay taxes through it.

The third is security improvements. For example, by creating a monitoring system, certain violations will be automatically detected an order of magnitude more. The most pronounced example is photo and video recording systems.

And the fourth, the most important indicator for us, is changes related to the timing of public services. For example, certificates will be issued not after 30 days, but after two hours or in general online. This is the best option, provided that the economic effect exceeds the amount of budget costs for implementation.

Departments have three-year digital transformation programs, where it is clearly formulated when which services are output, how they will be optimized, what effect this will have. Last year we approved them for the first time, now there is a revision. We believe that this is a different, more correct measurement of the result of digitalization.

Maksut Shadaev: Of course, we help those departments whose digitalization has a systemic effect for everyone to protect the budget, finance their tasks in the first place.

Maksut Shadaev: For example, the Ministry of Internal Affairs. In recent years, they have had serious underfunding. At the same time department plays very important role because in their information systems all basic accounts - a registration, registration, passports, vehicles are conducted. Many other services depend on the quality of their accounting. Receiving any benefit depending on the place of residence, a citizen should be able to confirm his registration online.

We support the Ministry of Internal Affairs in every possible way, but we ask you to take on specific obligations related to the deadlines for creating a centralized database of prescriptions and a data window, which is not available now. Colleagues in the Ministry of Internal Affairs are super-motivated and ready to do this. We ask you to comply with only two conditions: not to use foreign decisions and guarantee a certain regulatory period for processing interagency requests.

Maksut Shadaev: At some point, the topic of digitalization (or informatization) was leaving the radar, there was a shift in the direction of offline, the provision of services through the MFC. Electronic public services developed mainly by the most active departments (the same tax) and regions. Now there are time requirements, and the request of society, and the readiness and understanding of the importance on the part of the government, and the topic, indeed, has become the top one at the federal level.

The work of a departmental IT manager, of course, has become more stressful, because, on the one hand, it requires a "breakthrough," and the result is needed not after 4 years, but every month and quarter. On the other hand, the speed is growing, that is, a specific result needs to be shown in less time and for about the same money.

The Ministry of Digital Affairs also increases this stress, telling departments that together we must present some transparent results to society in order to justify the costs that we incurred.

Maksut Shadayev: I believe that the market has changed in a quality way. Previously, there were quite a few companies that participated in the creation of state IT systems. Now these are mainly state-owned companies - Rostelecom, Rostec, etc. And, probably, this is the only factor that slightly reduces the stress of departmental IT officials, because contracting with a state-owned company is a little more comfortable.

State-owned companies are also well done now, because there was such a period when they performed as if...

Maksut Shadaev: Managing center. They collected cooperation under them. And now, nevertheless, they have high requirements related to the need to form development teams inside, to increase the share of work that they do on their own.

Maksut Shadaev: I have the following position on this. If we are talking about large federal systems, then this is always a caste development, unique projects. And I do not see any problem in the fact that state-owned companies do this if they use the stack of modern Russian technological solutions that are offered by the market: ClickHouse, Tarantool, ArenaData, etc.

Maksut Shadayev: Commercial technologies are used, but the development of information systems based on them is done by the state-owned company. Take, for example, e-government systems - for me, of course, it is easier that Rostelecom is engaged in their development, that the resources of developers are concentrated inside, the state has control.

The goal of a commercial company is to make a profit, any commercial company will use the weakness of the customer to deliver results at minimal cost and maximize profit. Any commercial company will be interested in putting the customer on a needle so that he continues to finance its work. In stone development, always so.

Maksut Shadaev: Interested, but this is a state-owned company, and all its expenses for the state are transparent. And this, of course, is a big plus for any customer.

Imagine, there is a system, for example, social support payments to our citizens depend on it. And there is a commercial contractor with whom something can happen. There are different situations. He can come and say: the situation in the economy has changed, let's raise the cost of operation by 50%. This is a complete opacity and instability for us, because it is a commercial company.

Maksut Shadaev: I oppose such a story. When a state-owned company, using its size and political weight, says that it has made, for example, the best package of engineering software, and wants to receive a state subsidy, because "it is important for the state to have its own package," we answer this: listen, there are specialized commercial companies that make and successfully sell engineering packages. Do not replace the market.

Therefore, I consider it possible for state-owned companies to conclude contracts for the development of software. Moreover, I advocate that they increase their expertise, create and develop production units inside. But it is important that they always use the products and technologies that are on the market. They did not make analogues, and, moreover, did not enter the market with any circulation solutions. In the development market for departments, state-owned companies often show their effectiveness, but the market for commercial products and solutions is better left to those who know how to do this.

Maksut Shadaev: There are two components: the first, if there are any corruption facts, the second - when a formalist approach is used to the activities of an official, which makes him unprotected. Regarding the first component, I can only say that this is not our topic. This should be done by law enforcement agencies. Another thing is that we must protect the conscientious, who, taking into account the very tight deadlines and requirements of "faster, faster, faster," may allow some formal, in the understanding of the control bodies, violations.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, this happens. For example, if we take the formal side, where does the development of any large system begin? From the technical assignment. But we all understand that when a TK is written, there is usually only a general idea of ​ ​ what the system should look like. And when you start to implement it and implement it, you understand what works and what does not work. You understand that some parts of the original TA are no longer needed, and others that were not provided for, on the contrary, are needed.

Therefore, we plan to pay serious attention to the introduction of a flexible development mechanism in government agencies. The existing rigid standardized procedure, which has survived since Soviet times, will definitely be changed.

Maksut Shadayev: We are working in this direction, trying to convince colleagues, because substantive qualifications and expertise are very important.

Maksut Shadayev: This idea is being discussed as part of the preparation of the second package of IT industry support measures. We coordinate with departments, in particular, with the [Prosecutor General's Office of the Russian Federation'Ministry of Justice and the Prosecutor's Office]].

Maksut Shadaev: The state is not unique in terms of digitalization. We follow the banks. Collecting an information system from some services in the provider's cloud is the modern correct approach. Because everything is fast, accessible, connected to the infrastructure, you only pay for what you use, short time-to-market.

We believe that the state should have a similar component, modular, flexible platform, where departments will have the opportunity to use technological components, consume them as a service along with infrastructure, turnkey, and not think about anything at all. The IT manager will understand how the application works and what it works on the state platform, which means on those components that are provided by understandable developers.

And the second point - such a practice is needed only by a small number of large departments. Everyone else needs low-code components or even ready-made services.

Maksut Shadayev: We highlight three levels of components: technological, low-code and ready-made services.

A ready-made service, for example, an appointment with a doctor. A medical organization that wants to provide a record has a choice - to buy a server and deploy its own information system, or to take the service from the "cloud" and pay it at a rate, conditionally, 500 rubles for 500 records per day. The option with the service is more profitable than with the development of its own system. The service is integrated into State Services, it does not need to deploy infrastructure, everything is protected, etc.

Low-code is rather a ready-made specific component that can be reused with minimal modifications or settings. An example is our main platform for providing public services, this is a BPM engine on open-source-technologies, in which 100 typical regional and municipal services are configured by default. They are set based on best practice, and the region can take the current scenario of providing the service and, using the designer, reconfigure it for itself. At the same time, the region does not develop anything and does not pay anything, because the components are developed for budget money and are available to everyone. You don't even need to pay for infrastructure, because it works on a single state glacier.

In my understanding, 80% of government customers, if not more, need these two levels of components. These are kindergartens, schools, health institutions and other organizations where there are standard functions.

Maksut Shadaev: Gostekh's customers at each level are their own, but if you evaluate by number, it turns out that the more of the same type of organizations, the more they demand a typical solution. And they are definitely not ready to develop information systems. It is difficult to imagine an organization that is engaged, for example, in veterinary supervision in the region and is ready to invest in its own digitalization. It is easier for her to take a ready-made solution.

Or another example. We have a super service - a record at the university. The requirements for the target model there are very high. A person has submitted documents and must understand their chances of passing online, taking into account statistics from previous years. If he was confirmed admission, then he immediately receives a place in the hostel, electronic student, etc. This is a large range of services. We say how this model should work for users, and universities respond: "we do not have such super systems that can support the process." Then we offer them two options: buy finished components on the market or develop your own. For example, the HSE can develop its own systems, and small pedagogical universities are ready to take a simple ready-made turnkey solution, transfer the work of the reception commission to this technology and pay a small subscription fee.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, a technological full-fledged development environment, DevOps. Guest should provide the set of services that most of these customers need.

Maksut Shadaev: We do not put an equal mark between Gostech and Sberbank. Guest is an open platform, anyone can indemnify components into it, provided that the requirements are met.

Sberbank is a comprehensive service provider for the components that it offers as part of Gostech, but this does not mean that the platform will be limited only to these services. We are now collecting the configuration of the "cloud" and proceed from the fact that there should be a competitive model: even one service can have different providers.

Maksut Shadaev: Yes, easy. Maybe even five different assemblies of the same Postgres DBMS, some more expensive, some cheaper.

Maksut Shadaev: Wednesday was supposed to be ripe. The request for this was a long time ago. That one region issues building permits, that another region gives such permits. The law is one, so the process in different regions cannot differ much. But in any of our state projects, the cost of implementation is 80% of the cost of the final solution. That is, the technology itself as a typical solution is worthless. Software needs to be deployed, implemented, adapted, and so on. Create the infrastructure on which it will spin. Typical solutions were not much in demand, as they were offered and introduced by the developers themselves: he made for one region, went to sell in the second, third, fourth, fifth. But the development company could not do without it. And it was always a full-fledged implementation. The product could be free, but it needed to be deployed, supported, and so on.

Now, nevertheless, we are not talking about solutions, but about final services to which you can connect and work. Our public services platform already provides this opportunity. The adjusted processes comply with federal legislation and the opinion of the branch federal department. The region deploys service in a week or two.

Maksut Shadayev: We are currently developing regional strategies for digital transformation. We came to the conclusion that all regions are divided into three parts. The first are the regions that take federal money and federal services, and do what the federal authorities ask of them. The second are regions that do the same, but they have one, two or three directions where they are trying to demonstrate some of their uniqueness. And third are the leading regions that are trying to stake out the best practice in many directions at once, going forward and cutting through this clearing, including for us.

Moscow, Moscow region, Tatarstan are probably among the first, because they declare themselves as leaders. Ready to introduce artificial intelligence in medicine or online services for managing apartment buildings, for example. They have resources, capabilities, budget, an understanding of political significance and that this is part of the positioning of the region.

And many regions simply do not have the resources for this, but still must carry out the minimum federal program. We can't tell them: "guys, don't introduce digital services, because you don't have money, and live as you like." We must either give them a service, or give them money, or give both so that they deploy the services that we plan. A number of regions do not have their own budget or their own ambitions for this, but to break through, you still need resources, understanding and, most importantly, personnel.

Thus, we raise the general level by a little, step by step, setting the federal standard, but the leaders must go further. Leaders must pave the way and show prospects, say, for example: "in two years we will introduce artificial intelligence, which will draw up plans for medical examination, based on a risk assessment system. Why are we investing in this? Because for the leader of our region - this is part of positioning. We have the capabilities, resources and personnel to introduce artificial intelligence. "

The leading regions are introducing this kind of technology and moving our entire sphere forward, and we are looking at what can already be introduced from these developments as a standard, whether the environment is ripe. If we see that these are cool solutions that work, support at the federal level and go down - either with money for implementation, or as a service that all other regions begin to use. Therefore, it is very important for us that the leaders constantly go forward, so that the standard of digitalization constantly rises.

Maksut Shadayev: It remains where it is justified by resources. And when a region begins to engage in creativity, which does not have resources (make its own portal of services, for example), why do we need such creativity...

Maksut Shadaev: Honestly, if you look at the events of the national program "Digital Economy," we will see that 30-40% of these are events related to the regions. Connection of FAPs, Wi-Fi in schools, regional and municipal services, etc. The program is cut in directions, and inside each direction there is a serious regional component. If you select them, then the programs "Digital Federation," "Digital Region," "Digital Municipality" should appear. Municipalities are a separate branch of government with their powers. These are very different scales.

Maksut Shadayev: Now we are discussing regional strategies for digital transformation with the regions. If in the framework of these discussions we see that the regions will generate some unique projects that will require financial support from us, then we will do such an event or, maybe, a federal project.

It is important for us to see that we have middle peasant regions. Now it is obvious that there are leaders who do not need federal money, and there are regions with a bad base that only need federal money or federal decisions. If we understand that there are many middle peasants who are ready to initiate interesting popular projects in two or three areas, make a breakthrough on them, then we will be ready to support such breakthroughs.

Maksut Shadaev: Priority is cross-cutting. We have a national goal - digital transformation. It says that it is necessary to develop public services. If we regions are not involved in this story, then how will we be responsible for digitalizing services? It is easier with the federal authorities - there is coordination of expenses, thanks to which we can direct them. And the regions how to direct?

Maksut Shadaev: This is a vertical. A single vertical priority system.

Maksut Shadaev: Not bad. But still you need to understand that the region is different to the region. Somewhere these are strong ministries, strong guys, motivation, ambitions, a desire to prove and show some kind of mega-result. And somewhere a calm approach: "our governor believes that we are moving normally, we do not need any breakthroughs, but we are ready to fulfill your mandatory program."

Maksut Shadayev: It is important for us that they fulfill the mandatory program. It is already very ambitious, and many regions will have to try hard in the next two years.

Maksut Shadayev: Each governor has a budget and has his own projects for the development of the region. Among them are roads, medicine, budgetary institutions, and so on. The governor's resource is always limited.

Sometimes we receive complaints that regional roads are not provided with mobile communications, mobile Internet. We are ready to finance or burden operators so that they create infrastructure, but the issue of energy needs to be resolved. The regions have powers, you can use the resources of the road fund for this, negotiate with the energy industry. Some governors understand the severity of the issue and are actively included in this agenda, someone to a lesser extent. Digitalization is always a partnership and cooperation, involving all stakeholders in the process.

Maksut Shadayev: I agree that the existing rate of import substitution is not fast enough. But it will definitely change.

Maksut Shadaev: The levers are very simple: mechanisms to stimulate the introduction of Russian products in government agencies and state-owned companies, as well as fear of sanctions. For example, now all systems migrate from Oracle to Postgres. There are no stop factors here. No agency has said that it cannot do this. Everyone says: "Give me two years, we will do it."

Maksut Shadaev: They also have plans until 2024.

Maksut Shadaev: We will force them through directives.

Maksut Shadaev: Now everything is tougher.

Maksut Shadayev: In the new directives, the only criterion for the success of import substitution is the share of expenses. 70% of IT spending should be directed to Russian solutions.

For us, there are several marker cases that we follow. For example, the largest SAP implementation in Russian Railways. We do not call for throwing out previously made investments. Leave SAP, leave Oracle, just don't pay a lot of money for it. We must understand that import substitution occurs on a certain horizon. Therefore, we urge state-owned companies to gradually reduce the amount of money that is spent on foreign decisions.

Another direction of import substitution is critical infrastructure. And finally, companies that can be classified as dependent on defense industry, such as Baumanka.

There is a trend, and most importantly, that in our software there are very few categories of solutions where there are no competitive domestic analogues. I'm absolutely sure of that.

Maksut Shadayev: There was an economic expediency to finalize and use open source. This is more profitable than taking a proprietary solution.

We believe that open source is the most important achievement of the IT industry. For Russia, this is an excellent compromise option, given that domestic companies are already big open source contributors - projects, proved themselves in this activity, proved their superiority. This is the approach that will allow departments to replace import solutions.

Maksut Shadaev: We have two levers.

The first is a tough directive, a ban in regulated areas on the use of foreign equipment. For example, from 2023, telecom operators will be able to deliver only domestic base stations to their LTE networks. Another example is that all sensors and metering devices in apartment buildings should be placed only from the register of domestic equipment. Thus, we stimulate manufacturers to negotiate with Russian partners on the localization of production.

The second is stimulation in unregulated segments. For example, large banks ones buy servers or SHD and choose between the Chinese Huawei and Russian. Yadro Our task is to make Yadro systems for the customer to buy a little more profitable.

If the state subsidizes the largest anchor customers with the price difference between competitive Russian and import solutions, preferably with some small premium in favor of Russian, I believe this will give an excellent incentive.

We must find segments where, through regulation, we can create demand for Russian equipment in the right time horizon. We must also come up with formulas for the implementation of so-called end-to-end projects, where there are anchor customers who purchase a significant part of the equipment in their market segment.

There is a manufacturer that has the right to success. This is no longer a startup, it is already producing something, selling something. On the one hand, we connect this manufacturer with the customer and compensate for the price difference, and, on the other hand, we are ready to give the manufacturer a subsidy to ensure that the Russian electronic component base is embedded in its equipment.

For example, there is a well-known Russian manufacturer telecom of DWDM class spectral multiplexing equipment. Is his products in demand? Yes. It occupies about 10-15% of the market. We ask large telecom operators: can you buy more if it is slightly cheaper than imported analogues in terms of cost? We can. Good. Is the manufacturer ready to embed Russian electronic components? Ready. How much money does it take? So much. That's it.

Therefore, answering the question, I consider the import substitution of computer equipment and electronics very promising.